From: butler@cluster.gps.caltech.edu (Bryan Butler) Newsgroups: alt.drugs Subject: Re: Vikings and Mushrooms (long & referenced) Date: 20 May 1993 08:56:37 GMT Message-ID: <1tfh45INNb7@gap.caltech.edu> [ ... ] excerpted from "The Hallucinogens", by A. Hoffer and H. Osmond, Academic, 1967, pp. 443-454, without permission l-Tryptophan is one of the essential amino acids. It is the only indole amino acid but not the only precursor of indoles, since substances derived from tyrosine may also be converted into indoles of another sort. Tryptophan is the potential precursor of the indole alkylamines, that is, compounds which include bufotenine, N,N-dimethyltryptamine, N,N-diethyltryptamine, serotonin, iboga, and harmala alkaloids, psilocybin, LSD, lysergic acid amide, and some yohimbe alkaloids. With the exception of serotonin all these compounds are hallucinogens and serotonin may be a neurohormone. All the compounds listed are found in plants and a few in animals in contrast to the adrenaline matabolite indoles derived from adrenochrome which occur only in animals, so far as we know. ... Cohoba, the Narcotic Snuff of Ancient Haiti Safford (1916) reviewed the ancient and recent history of this narcotic snuff. There remained little doubt it was prepared from _Piptadena peregrina_ and contained chemicals which produced remarkable changes when inhaled or snuffed. ... Fish _et al_ (1955a,b,1956) and Fish and Horning (1956) showed that _P. peregrina_ seeds had 5 indoles. The chief one was bufotenine. Also present were N,N-dimethyltryptamine, bufotenine oxide, N,N-dimethyltryptamine oxide, and an unidentified indole. Jensen and Chen (1936) found bufotenidine in Ch'an Su and in the secretion of _Bufo bufo gargarizans, Bufo fowleri_ and _Bufo formosus_. They found bufotenine in _Bufo vulgaris_ and _Bufo viridis viridis_. Wieland _et al_ (1953) extracted bufotenine from the poisonous mushrooms _Amanita mappa, Amanita muscaria_, and _Amanita pantherina_. Bufotenine was first found in the skin of several toad species and the dried secretion (Ch'an Su) of the Chinese toad has been known to be biologically active for centuries but there are no records of toad skin or its extract being used as hallucinogenic material. This suggests that there is too little bufotenine or that other substances which potentiate the effect of bufotenine are lacking in frog skin. We do not believe that Man has not sampled toad skin. Primitive man has been very adept at selecting those species of plants and animals which contained hallucinogenic compounds. ... The fly-agaric mushrooms are the only other natural source of bufotenine. But they also contain three other main constituents (Buck, 1961). Muscarin which is a parasympathomimetic substance is present. It acts directly on effector organs, smooth muscle, and glandular cells. Atropine prevents most of the effects. Also present in some species of _Amanita_ is a substance called pilzatropin which may be l-hyoscyamine. dl-hyoscyamine is atropine. Finally a pilztoxin is present because even after the muscarine present is prevented from acting by pretreatment with atropine, there remains a psychological effect. Narcoticlike intoxication, convulsions, and death have followed in spite of adequate treatment with atropine. Lewin (1931) described the use of the fly-agaric by the native tribes of North East Asia in Siberia. Lewin discussed briefly the suggestion Berserkers consumed this mushroom to produce their great rages. The fly-agaric was in constant demand and there was a well-established trade between Kamchatka where it did grow to the Taigonos Peninsula where it did not grow at all. The Koryaks paid for them with reindeer and Lewin reported one animal was sometimes exchanged for one mushroom. The Kamchadales and Koryaks consumed from 1 to 3 dried mushrooms. They believed the smaller mushrooms with a large quantity of small warts were more active than the pale red and less spotted ones. Among the Koryaks, their women chewed the dried agaric and rolled the masticated material into small sausages which were swallowed by the men. Lewin does not report whether the women got some of the psychological response. The Siberians discovered the active principle was excreted in the urine and could be passed through the body once more. As soon as the Koryak noted his experience was passing, he would drink his own urine which he had saved for this purpose. The same mushrooms could thus give one person several experiences or several people one experience. After several passages the urine no longer was able to produce the desired effect. The response to the mushrooms varied from person to person and in the same person at different times. The mushrooms varied in potency and sometimes one mushroom was effective; at other times ineffective. The first response occurred in 1 to 2 hours beginning with twitching and trembling. Consciousness was maintained and during this induction phase the subjects were euphoric and contented. Then the visions came on. The subjects spoke to their visionary people and discussed various matters with them. They were quite calm but appeared entranced with a glassy stare. Other subjects became very jolly or sad, jumped about, danced, sang or gave way to great fright. Their pupils were enlarged. Lewin believed this was responsible for the distortions in size which occurred. Small objects appeared much too large. This "deceptive perception is apt to influence his action" ... "on the basis of his illusions the conclusion which he arrives at is very reasonable." In large quantities more severe hallucinations and rages occurred. The initial excitation could become more and more severe leading to attacks of raving madness. In some cases motor excitation was dominant. The eyes became savage, the face bloated and red, the hands trembled and the individual danced or rushed about until exhausted when he apparently slept. But he then experienced more hallucinations. This could then be replaced by another spasm of overactivity followed by more hallucinations and fantasy. Ramsbottom (1953) described in more detail the use of these mushrooms by the Berserkers. According to him, fly-agaric or bug-agaric were poisonous but not deadly and did not kill healthy people. The potency varied with district. In some districts of France these mushrooms are regularly eaten. S. Odman, in 1784, first suggested that Vikings used fly-agaric to produce their berserk rages. Ramsbottom cited 12 authors who referred to the use of these mushrooms by the Siberian tribes already mentioned. The Koryaks believed a person drugged obeyed the wishes of spirits residing in them. Fabing (1956) and Fabing and Hawkins (1956) was convinced the Berserkers did, indeed, use fly-agaric. It is a very plausible explanation. Going berserk occurred as follows. The Norse took the mushrooms so that the effect came on during the heat of battle or while at work. During the berserk rage they performed deeds which otherwise were impossible. The rage started with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and a chill. Their faces became swollen and changed color. A great rage developed in which they howled like wild animals and cut down anyone in their way, friend or foe alike. Afterward their mind became dulled and feeble for several days. In 1123 AD a law was passed making anyone going berserk liable for several years in jail. It was not heard of since. Fabing quoted Drew who described a modern reaction to _Amanita muscaria._ A patient ate some of the mushrooms at 10:00 PM. Two hours later he developed diarrhea, sweating, vertigo, and salivation. He fell asleep but was awake at 2:00 AM disoriented, irrational, and violent. ON admission to hospital he was cyanotic, responded to pinpricks but not to deep pain. He was disoriented in all three spheres. Somnolence alternated with excitement. He thought he was in hell. He spoke continually and irrationally of religious matters. A physician was misidentified as Christ. When not in hell he was convinced he was in Eden. That evening his mental state cleared and next morning he was normal. REFERENCES: Buck, R. W. (1961). _New Engl. J. Med._, 265:681 Fabing, H. D. (1956). _Am. J. Psychiat._, 113:409 Fabing, H. D., and Hawkins, J. R. (1956). _Science_, 123:886 Fish, M. S., and Horning, E. C. (1956). _J. Nervous Mental Disease_, 124:33 Fish, M. S., Johnson, N. M., and Horning, E. C. (1955a). _J. Am. Chem. Soc._, 77:5892 Fish, M. S., Johnson, N. M., Lawrence, E. P., and Horning, E. C. (1955b), _Biochim. Biophys. Acta_, 18:564 Fish, M. S., Johnson, N. M., and Horning, E. C. (1956). _J. Am. Chem. Soc._, 78:3668 Jensen, H., and Chen, K. K. (1936). _J. Biol. Chem._, 116:87 Lewin, L. (1931). "Phantastica: Narcotic and Stimulating Drugs: Their Use and Abuse." Kegan Paul, London. Ramsbottom, J. (1953). "Mushrooms and Toadstools. A Study of the Activities of Fungi." Collins, London. Safford, W. E. (1916). _J. Wash. Acad. Sci._, 6:547 Wieland, T., Motzel, W., and Merz, H. (1953). _Ann. Chem._, 581:10 ======================================================================== In article <93079.153237SXL136@psuvm.psu.edu> SXL136@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > Anyone had any experiences with this? What were the effects? No personal experience, but I wrote the following at some point: - Use These mushrooms are usually eaten (and are said to taste fine), but people have for some reason tried to smoke them. This is minimally effective. If you want to try, use the skin, which is the most active portion. If you boil them, you may have to drink a lot of broth into which the active principles have leached. They are said to be of slightly decreased effectiveness when dried, particularly after more than a few months. As smoking presumably pyrolyzes the stuff, don't dry it at outrageous temperatures, or pan-blacken it. :-) The dosage has been variously recommended as "one to four caps", "one or two mushrooms", and "30 grams of dried caps" for A. muscaria. A cap, of course, can vary in size from a half-inch sphere to an eight-inch platter. I have no idea. Start way low. The red variety is said to be more potent than the yellow. For A. pantherina, the one reference I have involves half a cup of fresh mushroom per person. This may be high; see "Effects" below. - Effects Reports of effects vary widely, as is to be expected from a natural psychoactive. The mental effects may become apparent within half an hour, but more usually take an hour. The duration seems to be anywhere from four to ten hours. Euphoria, ataxia, and sensory alterations are characteristic, particularly alterations of hearing and taste. Visual effects have also been reported, as has nausea. A. muscaria may also produce cholinergic symptoms such as "profuse salivation and mild perspiration" [Ott]. A. muscaria anecdotes. Steven Pollock, J. Psych Drugs Oct-Dec 1975. "When we returned to a friend's residence, we boiled six caps of various dimensions. Frank consumed two in his mushroom soup and I ate four (the usual dose being one to four caps). The taste was something like chicken. Curiously, I became nauseated within minutes but the feeling was fleeting. Within a half hour I noticed many peculiar effects. Audition became enhanced and synesthesias became prominent with multi-modality overflow. I began to taste odors, to small tastes, and even to hear odors and tastes. Visual disturbances were almost non-existent, but I noticed frequent recurrent gustatory, olfactory and auditory flashes. Tactile sensation became markedly enhanced. Occasional moments of nausea occurred during the first two hourse of the experience, but then the pseudo-delirium settled into a profound euphoric state of consciousness. Equilibrium was affected as by ethyl alcohol throughout the intoxication, but mentation in contrast remained unimpaired. After six hours, though still under the Amanita influence, I retired for a night of sound sleep. Frank experienced a state of wellbeing and restfulness without any nausea. He felt a sharpening of auditory, gustatory, and tactile sensations. While taking a shower during the evening, Frank seemed to taste cleanliness and he later slept well. "A few days later we again tempted our fate but with dried Amanitas. I ate four caps and Frank consumed three. Each of us experienced a pleasant intoxication with only mild sensory alterations including subtle echo patterns. Frank did feel nauseated, however, for the first half hour, but the predominant effect afterwards was induction of euphoria. A nonintoxicated observer noticed no distinctive changes in our behavior." Jonathan Ott, "Studies of Amanita" J. Psych Drugs Jan-Mar 1976. "On two occasions in the fall of 1975, I ingested dried caps of A. muscaria from Washington. The mushroom caps were eaten as `Amanita chips,' and were tasty. On the first occasion, I ingested the chips along with several grams of Psilocybe cyanescens Wakefield from Washington which had been estimated to contain at least 1 percent psilocin dry weight. The effect experienced therefore have no bearing on Amanita toxicity. On the second occasion, I ingested about 30 grams of the dried caps, and after an hour began to experience a very pleasant opium-like sedation with slight visual phenomena, similar to those described for A. pantherina intoxication, although of lesser intensity. I experienced distinct muscarinic effects, characterized by profuse salivation and mild perspiration. Three friends who ingested the mushrooms with me reported similar effects. The muscarinic symptoms were not at all unpleasant. Either these effect were due to muscarine in the carpophores (in which case A. muscaria from Washington must contain a much higher concentration of muscarine than is reported for European specimens), or they were produced by some yet-unidentified compound with muscarinic activity. "Again, I experienced no nausea or other adverse effects. The intoxication was experienced for about five hours, after which I went to sleep and awoke the next morning with no after-effects. During the experience I noticed a rather profound diminution of coordination and balance, effects similar to advanced stages of ethanol intoxication. There were, however, no effects of clouding of consciousness or slurring of speech. One of the friends who ingested the mushrooms with me experienced slight nausea, but no other adverse effects were reported." A. pantherina anecdote. Jonathan Ott again. "In the spring of 1975, after completing the above survey, I collected some early specimens of A. pantherina near Tenino, Washington. I sliced and sauteed the mushrooms, and divided them into six portions, consisting of about one half cup of material each. The six portions were ingested by myself and five friends, one of whom ingested only half of a dose, the remaining half being ingested, along with a full portion, by another of my friends. All of us enjoyed the taste of the mushrooms. "After an hour had elapsed, I had concluded that the dosage level was too low, and had retired to my home to build a fire and study. About 90 minutes after ingestion, however, while hyperventilating into my wood stove in an attempt to start the fire, I noticed that I was experiencing changes in visual perception. These effects became stronger over the next hour or some, and were characterized by sensing an `alive quality' in inanimate objects, wavy motion in the visual field like a Van Gogh canvas (no color perception was associated with the motion, however, as is so commonly encountered following ingestion of LSD, psilocybin, or mescaline), and mild distortion of size, distance and depth perception. Auditory hallucination were also prominent -- especially the effect, called `anahata sounds' of yoga, of hearing fine high-pitched sounds like bells and violin strings. I experienced only slight impairment of motor coordination and balance, such as would be produced by a small amount of ethanol, equivalent to two or three bottles of beer. In contrast to the effect of ethanol, however, there was no slurring of speech or clouding of consciousness. While I felt as though my conciousness was somehow removed and distant from the surroundings, I experienced a sense of great clarity, as I often experience following ingestion of psilocybin-containing mushrooms. It seemed to me that the psychic effect were emanating from the `ajna chakra', the so-called `third eye' -- a locus above and between the eyes. I experienced no muscular spasms, cramps, vomiting, or nausea of any kind. The experience was totally pleasurable, and lasted about seven hours. I was struck by the unique quality of the effect whereas I find the psychic effects of LSD, psilocybin-containing mushrooms, and peyote to be similar, to be, as it were, on a continuum of related experience, I felt the A. pantherina was distinctly different. "Of my five friends, two experienced slight nausea, and only one felt drowsy. This person slept for about an hour, and awoke feeling refreshed. Two of my friends alleged that they had never been so high on hallucinogenic drugs before. One of these friends, the person who ingested half again as much of the fried mushrooms as I, experienced a complete dissociative reaction, and was unable to communicate with the rest of the group for about five hours. While in this state, he was periodically attempting to articulate his thoughts, but was totally incapable of communication. During this phase of his intoxication, we were talking about this history of A. muscaria and urine ingestion in Siberia. The subject in the dissociated state later reported the experience of vivid waking dreams which were related, through bizarre imagery, to the topics of the conversations we had been conducting around him. After about five hours of dissociative experience, the subject began to reestablish contact with the rest of us and within 90 minutes was fully rational, though shaken and frightened. None of us experienced any after-effects." > Sean LeBlanc PGP 2 key by finger or e-mail Eli ebrandt@jarthur.claremont.edu ============================================================================ In article pan@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Pagan Academic Network) writes: >In article <93079.153237SXL136@psuvm.psu.edu> SXL136@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > Anyone had any experiences with this? What were the effects? > Good question I've been wanting to know the same thing I wouldn't mind >some feedback on Fly Agaric also. I would be pretty scared to take these, but since I have this darn Psychedelics Encyclopedia right here, let me see what it says. Okay, for starters, Fly Agaric is the same thing as Amanita muscaria (Pagan's question left it ambiguous). There's another one called Panther Caps or Amanita pantherina that has the same psychoactive compounds - ibotenic acid, muscimol and (less important) muscazone - but more of them. Now these guys are somewhat toxic, but the other thing to keep in mind is that the Amanita genus has the species that cause 95 percent of all deaths from mushroom poisoning, so you damn well better know what species you're munching on. Amanita virosa (Destroying Angel), Amanita phalloides (Death Cap),... well, I guess the names tell it all. Apparently you only feel the poison of these bad guys TWO DAYS after you eat them, by which time stomach pumping is seldom any use. They look similar to the "good" Amanitas, so be fucking careful. One funny thing is that about half the books on mushrooms say Amanita muscaria is deadly, but R. Gordon Wasson (who wrote "SOMA: Divine Mushroom of Immortality", arguing that the "soma" of the Rig-Veda was Amanita muscaria) claims that there's not a single firsthand account of lethal poisoning by A. muscaria. Supposedly, if properly dried they are okay if you start with NO MORE THAN 1/4-1/2 CUP OF CHOPPED OR SAUTEED MATERIAL. According to Johnathan Ott, "These mushrooms are powerful. The effective dose range may be narrow. If it is exceeded, even by a small amount, a dissociative experience may result, even a comatose state or an inability to function. Of course, there are many who desire this kind of effect [I love that]; no doubt it would be alarming to others. There are many unanswered questions concerning the toxicity of these mushrooms. It has been suggested, and there is some evidence to support this, that the toxicity may vary according to location and season." The drying process turns ibotenic acid into muscimol, multiplying the potency by 5 or 6, and reduces bad side-effects. Apparently many people who take it say it's "not all that nice, perhaps not even psychedelic". But here's what Ott says: "After oral ingestion, the full effects will begin in about 90 minutes. For me these are characterized by wavy motion in the visual field, an "alive" quality to inanimate objects, auditory hallucinations and a sense of great mental stillness and clarity. The effects are distinctly different from psilocybin, LSD or mescaline, and may last up to 8 hours. Side effects often include nausea, slight loss of balance and coordination, and drowsiness. Smoking produces a more rapid effect of shorter duration." Need I repeat this? Anyone who wants to mess with these should learn a lot more about them than the above. ========================================================================= Newsgroups: alt.drugs From: rcain@netcom.com (Robert Cain) Subject: Re: Amanita Muscaria Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 07:52:32 GMT (SXL136@psuvm.psu.edu) wrote: : Anyone had any experiences with this? What were the effects? Suggestions : and comments welcome... : Sean LeBlanc Yep, a night in the hospital in the most awful psychic agony I have ever experienced while they poured ipecac (SP) and charcoal down me 'cause the little bastards refused to let me puke. I was pumped. I was then hooked to a heart monitor and had the distinct displeasure of seeing my heart stop a couple of times. After one of them and a couple of firm thumps to my sternum I asked the doctor if I was going to make it. He was rather preocupied with saving my life and sorta muttered, "we don't know." They would not treat me with anything until the mushroom was identified which they did by flying it to a poison control center in Denver, I think it was, by Navy jet from Moffet field. They then shot me with something that had me down in 15 minutes after about six hours of mental horror. The next morning every damn med student and intern came by to find out what it was like. I didn't have good things to report. Your mileage may vary. The view I got of the human condition and the burried sadness, pain and agony in everyone around and treating me in the busy emergency facility may have been one very powerful sort of empathogenic halucination effect but it fucked me up for a long time. I have tried nearly every psychoactive even remotely available and nothing, NOTHING, has had such a negative psychic effect. Peace, Bob -- Bob Cain rcain@netcom.com 408-358-2007 'The meek shall inherit the earth--the rest of us will move on..' Sameer Parekh PGP 1.0 or 2.0 public key available on request. =========================================================================== Newsgroups: alt.drugs From: kfseefel@mtu.edu (KURT F. SEEFELDT) Subject: Re: Fly agaric? Help request Message-ID: <1993Apr30.005221.14177@mtu.edu> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1993 00:52:21 GMT In article nat92-6@math.chalmers.se (Andreas Engstr|m) writes: >I would be very happy if people could post their experiences with >Amanita Muscaria, Fly agaric (Y'know, that red thing with white dots..). I was the sober person for a Amanita Muscaria experience with some friends. They consumed some fresh mushrooms with peanut butter, as the taste was horrid. Nothing happened for a while. Then...they all ended up getting sick (vomitting). The illness was brief but violent and unexpected. That passed and the buzz set in. They described it as similar to a few beers. Nothing special, and certainly not worth the experience. They have not done it since and I don't think they will. Based on their experience, I would not recommend it. If you do try it, be careful. - kurt ============================================================================= Newsgroups: alt.drugs From: aankrom@zia.ucs.indiana.edu (aankrom) Subject: Re: Amanita muscaria -experiment Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 01:56:43 GMT In article <231302Z16121993@anon.penet.fi> an56966@anon.penet.fi writes: >I come from Finland. > >Maybe Amanita muscarias here in Finland are better than >yours? > >* Taavetti * This is more than likely true. The European variety of A muscaria is hallucinogenic/intoxicating while the North American variety will only make the eater very ill. If youlive in North America, don't experiment with A muscaria. Anthony -- Ich fuehle mich so verlassen...